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In my first post on this topic, I attempted to show from the scriptures that the latter day church is included with the Gentiles from a Book of Mormon perspective. I would encourage anyone to do their own study on this topic by searching out all the references to ‘gentile’ in the scriptures and formulating their own opinion. There are only 309 references to ‘gentile’ found in the scriptures, but it would be interesting to include the term ‘nations’ in the Bible as ‘goyim’ is translated as both. I would also like to hear comments from anyone who could provide an alternative viewpoint as to how the LDS Church fits into the context of the Book of Mormon.

As we consider the topic further, let’s go back to Nephi’s vision found in 1 Nephi, chapter 13. Here are some of the key verses found there:

  1. “among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church” (verse 4)
  2. “a man among the Gentiles…went forth upon the many waters…to the promised land” (verse 12)
  3. “many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise” (verse 14)
  4. “mother Gentiles were gathered together… to battle against them” (verse 17)
  5. Nephi sees a book that “is a record of the Jews” (verse 23)
  6. This book goes from the Jews to the Gentiles but “many parts which are plain and most precious” of the gospel and covenants are removed (verse 26)
  7. “I will be merciful unto the Gentiles… I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel” (verse 34)
  8. Nephi’s seed will write many things and “these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles” (verse 35)
  9. “other books…came forth…from the Gentiles unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed” (verse 39)
  10. “these last records… shall establish the truth of the first” (verse 40)

It is important to note that the Lord did not change how he called this people after they received the gospel. They were Gentiles before the restoration and they were still Gentiles after. From the perspective given us through Nephi’s vision, we were Gentiles then and still Gentiles now.

The thirteenth chapter ends with this statement:

“And the time cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all nations, both unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles; and after he has manifested himself unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles, then he shall manifest himself unto the Gentiles and also unto the Jews, and the last shall be first, and the first shall be last.” (verse 42)

While I go into more detail on my website www.fulness.com/lastfirst , let me just say that the manifestation unto the Gentiles represents the restoration of the Gospel to us, being the Gentiles. This verse also indicates that ultimately, the Lord intends to manifest Himself unto the Jews.

So let us consider what the Book of Mormon says about our future. We see in verse 42 above that there is a transition from Gentile to Jew, just as there was a transition from Jew to Gentile in the meridian of time. I am sure that you will agree that the rejection of the Gospel by the Jews at the time of Christ did not bode well for them. In a comment to the Gentiles-R-Us Part 1, NEPT pointed out the discussion of the inspired version of the Bible dealing with Matthew 21. I would encourage you to read it. The essence of the discussion in the verses is that God will take the kingdom of God from the Jews and it ‘shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof; (meaning the Gentiles).’ However, we find in verse 56, that the fruits are short-lived:

“And then understood they the parable which he spake unto them, that the Gentiles should be destroyed also, when the Lord should descend out of heaven to reign in his vineyard, which is the earth and the inhabitants thereof.”

Why would we as Gentiles receive the kingdom of God but then be destroyed? It can only be a result of our rejection of the fulness of the gospel. Let me explain.

In Part 1, I discussed the verses found in 3 Nephi 16 surrounding the believing and unbelieving of the Gentiles. This chapter also supports the prophetic demise of us, as Gentiles, when the Lord states:

“And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.”

This verse portends the rejection of the fulness of the gospel by the Gentiles. In the BYU series on the Book of Mormon, Robert Millet and others discussed this scripture. To listen to a portion of that discussion click here. I might note that the reference in this audio clip to the twelve may be more appropriately pointed at the original twelve apostles of the Lord than Bro. Millet’s suggestion that this applies to the latter-day apostles. I don’t believe you can separate out today’s leadership from the rejection of the gospel. It is the whole church that is under condemnation.

In the context of the 16th chapter of third Nephi where this is found, it applies to the Gentiles collectively, both believing and unbelieving. And what does the Lord do with the fulness of the gospel that is taken away from the Gentiles?

“And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.” (verse 12)

So, just as predicted in 1 Nephi 13:42, ‘the last shall be first, and the first shall be last’ with the Jews receiving the fulness of the Gospel after it is rejected by the Gentiles.

The plea from the Lord at this point is thus:

“But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.” (verse 13)

We are asked to repent and return so that we may be included among His people.

So… what must we repent of? Pride is certainly one item mentioned in 3 Nephi 16:10. Sinning against His gospel is another. I would suggest this be a critical topic of prayer and fasting. Here are some suggestions to ponder:

  • What is the fulness of the gospel that is rejected?
  • Where is the fulness of the gospel found in the scriptures?
  • What is the definition of the gospel found in the scriptures?
  • What must I give up of this material world that is restricting my ability to acquire the fulness of the gospel?
  • How does the Lord measure His church?

I believe that the scriptures have answers to all these questions.

Here is one final topic to consider. Growing up in the church, I was given the distinct impression that one day, we would be called to go back to Missouri to establish Zion and build His temple. So, what does the Book of Mormon have to say on that topic?

Speaking of the Gentiles, the Lord states in 3 Nephi, chapter 21 verses 22-25:

“But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.

And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.

And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.”

In a close reading of this chapter, the Lord is asking us Gentiles to repent. If we do, we will have his church established among us. I get the distinct impression that the establishment of the church He speaks of here happens well after the restoration of the gospel and shortly before the events surrounding New Jerusalem. I would also note that it is the lot of the Gentiles to ASSIST the remnant of Jacob in the building of Zion. Not the other way around.

The warning is clear. We must repent and return. We must accept the fulness of the gospel. We must subdue our pride and understand that we will be the assistants to the remnant of Jacob in the building of Zion.

What think ye?

22 Responses to “Gentiles-R-Us Part 2”

  • How ironic! I just was reading another website about the gentiles ASSISTING the remnant of Jacob.

    Good post!

  • There goes that great minds thing again… I am hoping to follow this discussion on the gentiles with a discussion on the remnant of Jacob. What site were you visiting?

    Spek

  • I fell across it while doing a search for an apostacy quote or something.
    http://www.prophecykeepers.com/mormons-fall-away.html

    I haven’t read much of it because the black background makes it difficult. It talks about things more from the Native American side. There is some references to the priesthood which also go along with Watchers latest post on onewhoiswatching.

    Anyway, it might have some good references on it. Let me know what you think.

  • I came across Blue Otter’s site a few years ago. At that time, I also bought the CD that the site offers. I have similar views on some of the topics that the Mormon church has distanced themselves from including the role of the ‘remnant of Jacob’ and the law of consecration. I do believe that this ‘remnant of Jacob’ will play prominently in the future. It is just a little unclear who that is.

    Russell Means, who is interviewed on the site, was a witness to Fool’s Crow; one of the last great healers of the Lakota. I hope to post on that topic at some point.

  • Rob:

    I’m not reading the word Assist in the same context you view it in. I’m reading the meaning of the word assist in this context as “Helping” people with something I have that they need.

    The proof of that being the propper context and meaning is found in other parts of the wording. The remnant of Jacob and the others “come”to the Repentant remnant of the Gentiles who have something that will assist the needs of those who “come”. Otherwise if it were according to your understanding it would be worded so that the Gentile Remnant would be coming to them…See?

  • Rob:

    I would like to say just a few more things on this subject. There seems to be a hint of animosity in regard to the Remnant Gentiles who do Repent. Remember these are not among the prideful and rebellious of Ephriam. Most have maybe dozed off a bit but wer’re still talking the Ellect among the Ellect. All of the Ellect come from all the Tribes as they are Gathered…12,000 of each Tribe. But never forget that the choicest of the Lords Blessings fell upon the head of Ephriam. Ephriam holds the Birth Right and responsibility of ASSISTING, “HELPING his brothers by assuming the LEAD ROLE that he was given. Apostacy among the Gentiles(Ephriam) dose no constitute God removing that Blessing from those who REPENT of (Ephriam). No where dose it say the Birth Right would go to anyone but Ephriam. It’s not a matter of anyone being better than another Brother. As a matter of fact it is just the opposite. If I have something my Brother needs to raise him Higher then I want to ASSIST and HELP him because I love him.

  • OWIW:

    I have always interpreted “assist” the same way as Rob.

    I have always felt that those of Ephraim mentioned in section 133 who get the greater blessing, are of the repentant and believing gentiles. It would be the first laborers of the last kingdom and their associates, who are the primary “servants of the Lord” in the great work.

    “And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants…. and there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim… Behold, this is the blessing of the everlasting God upon the tribes of Israel, and the richer blessing upon the head of Ephraim and his fellows”

    When the great work that was “hindered” in the 2nd watch resumes, it will be the same Ephraimite servants of the Lord that resume the work. They will be carrying other remnants of Jacob on their shoulders.

    Watcher

  • So… assist = helping by assuming the lead role? I think that is a stretch. Here are some thoughts. If I were to assist in surgery, I do not assume the role of surgeon. When I am an assistant to the president, I do not usurp a ‘lead’ role from my leader.

    Relative to Section 133, I have this opinion (subject to further knowledge).
    As you read this section, verses 30-34 pertain to the blessing of Ephraim. But you can’t stop reading there because the Lord then turns his attention to the tribe of Judah in much of the rest of the section. This treatment lines up with the first shall be last and the last shall be first. Christ will manifest himself unto the Gentiles and then the Jews (1 Nephi 13:42). The same message is repeated in D&C Section 107:25 where the message goes to the Gentiles and then to the Jews. I hold Jacob’s blessing of Ephraim as the key to this idea. Ephraim was blessed to become a multitude of ‘goyim.’ (Genesis 48:10). In other words, Ephraim will populate the gentile nations from which will people the land of promise here in America.

    As I read the message in 133, Ephraim will indeed be blessed but will also be called to crown the heads of the Lord’s people. The attention will then shift to the Jews. I see section 133 as a symbolic representation of the transition from Gentile/Ephraim to the tribe of Judah.

    Watcher, I realize that doesn’t line up with the 3rd watch. I just haven’t got there at this time

    Hope you can make some sense out of my thoughts here.

  • Concerning the assist…

    My understanding is that all of the twelve tribes of Israel will work a great work in preparation of the advent of the Lord. Ephraim receives the richer blessing of having the repentant Gentiles come into their tribe. In other words, it is Ephraim that is selected to be the “saving tribe” of the Gentiles. The Gentiles are not normally placed into any of the other lineages. The meaning of the scriptures is not intended, in my understanding, to convey that Ephraim is to be the leading tribe of the 12 tribes, meaning that they will contain all the church leadership. My understanding is that at some point, as you all should know, we will be brought into tribal anarchy (speaking of the church) and the tribal councils and elders will be leading the tribes. In other words, 12 tribal councils leading 12 tribes, not one group of Ephraimitish individuals (composed of quorums and presidencies) leading the 12 tribes. There will be Ephraimitish prophets, Manassehite prophets, prophets of Judah, Benjamin, Dan, etc., all coming forth and prophesying and leaders of these various tribes leading their peoples. The Lord intends to turn things upside down (from the way they are now) and back in time (to how they existed previously).

    We currently speak of tribes of this and tribes of that doing this and that, but the tribal functions have not yet been activated. Tribalism, and its future advent, does not appear to be even vaguely comprehended by any of the membership of the church, as yet. Perhaps I will write a post on this on my own blog. Thanks for the mental stimulation.

  • OWIW:

    Spek

    You said;

    “So… assist = helping by assuming the lead role? I think that is a stretch. Here are some thoughts. If I were to assist in surgery, I do not assume the role of surgeon. When I am an assistant to the president, I do not usurp a ‘lead’ role from my leader.”

    I don’t understand why you think the word assist can only be referring to a subordinate role helping someone in a higher role.

    If a construction superintendent gets a laborer or a sub-contractor to do something for him he is being assisted by someone in a lesser role.. by the same token, if the owner of the construction company brings him another set of blue prints when the previous ones are lost, is he not being assisted… by someone in a greater leadership role?

    In verse 10 of section 109 reads;

    “And now Holy Father, we ask thee to assist us, thy people, with thy grace, in calling our solemn assembly, that it may be done to thine honor and to thy divine acceptance…”

    The Lord is assisting his people…

    You will understand the 3rd watch doctrine once the Servants return… LOL

  • […] one more point that I wish to address with this post. (This really is what4anarchy’s job as he is the resident […]

  • Forest Simmons:

    It’s hard for us gentiles to consider that we are already fast becoming a minority in the church. The church is growing much faster in the third world, i.e. among the “outcasts of Israel” than it is within the USA and Western Europe, i.e. among the Gentiles. Even here in the states the remnants of Israel, i.e. Mexicans, Tongans, Africans, etc. are much more receptive to the restored gospel than the Gringos. If you go knocking on doors with the full time missionaries, the difference will amaze you.

    By the way, as often as not Paul used “Greek” for “Gentile,” and the word “Gringo” derives from “Greek.” So we have a nice case of linguistic convergence here.

    Chapters three, four and five of Helaman tell the story of a great nation of white people who had been highly favored of the Lord in preserving them from their enemies, in giving them knowledge, in prospering them, etc. When these Nephites were lifted up in their pride, the darker skinned people over ran them suddenly and drove them out of their lands. With great military effort they recovered about half of their possessions.

    Then Helaman’s two sons Nephi and Lehi went on a mission among them. After initial tribulation, the more part of the Lamanites were converted in less than a year’s time, and they voluntarily returned the Lands of the Nephites to the survivors.

    From then on the converted Lamanites vastly outnumbered (probably more than fifty to one) the Nephites and were much more faithful until the general apostasy 300 years later.

    Not long after the events of Helaman 5, (despite warnings from Samuel the Lamanite) the Nephites were destroyed again at the time of the Lord’s crucifixion. Note that it was the Nephites that were destroyed, not the Lamanites. From then on the Nephites were mostly numbered among the Lamanites, and especially after the last great war. When Nephi was shown the future he was shown “the mixture of thy seed among the seed of thy brethren” (1 Nephi 13:30)

    This story is about to be repeated.

    We know who the highly favored white people are.

    Who are the brown people this time?

    They are some third world people who have hardly begun to hear the gospel, perhaps the Chinese, perhaps indigenous Americans.

    After they go through as a young lion, they will hear the gospel and repent. Within a very short period of time they will vastly outnumber all of the previous members of the church combined. This is the “great and marvelous work” that is about to commence, for which Joseph Smith, Jr. laid the foundation.

  • Russell Ricks:

    Could the “Remnant of Israel” be the modern day Israeli people and not the descendants of the Lamanites?

    The Obama Administration is surely angering the Jews in Israel. Would they not be capable of retalliation against the U.S.? I think it is an interesting possibility.

  • Russell,
    Yes, that could be the case if there are two groups of remnants of the house of Israel described in the Book of Mormon. However, one of the specific definitions is found in the preface:

    “Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel…”

    The remnant most prominently discussed in the Book of Mormon are the Lamanites.

    As you can see, it says ‘a’ remnant not ‘the’ remnant. The Book of Mormon, of course, talks of other remnants of which we are not aware (3 Nephi 20:13)

  • Rob:

    Here is a simple way to look at the True meaning of “ASSIST”…

    Ephriam as OWIW said…Was given & still pocesses the “Birthright”. The Birthright Blessing is also associated with the Abrahamic Covenant in terms of the role Women play as Mothers who GIVE BIRTH and are responsible for Teaching ( ASSISTING ) her Children.

    Ephriam’s Preithood Role is to Mirror the Overall Aspect of “MOTHERING” the other Tribes as Children who need access & Instruction of the Higher Blessings Placed upon the Head of Ephriam. ( Acting in the STEAD of a Mother ).

    Ephriam like a “Mother” is to ASSIST the children of the Lost Tribes of Israel, just as CHILDREN become lost to their Parents and need to Return.

    Would you consider a Mother to be assuming a Subordinate Role in regarding her ASSISTING her childrens’ Return ?

    The Surgeon Analogy you gave is backward. The Surgeon would be Ephriam with the knowledge & skills to provide ASSISTANCE to a Rookie Intern needing INSTRUCTION in regard to the knowing how to interact with the Patient being operated on ( ZION )…

  • Rob:

    Another way to put this in perspective is to view the whole “Family” Relationship of Israel.

    Untill it is placed in THAT context, it will appear scrambled.

    The original Northern Kingdom of Israel consisted of Ephriam ( the Mom or wife ) who split from her Husband & Father of her Children ( Juda ) to the South.

    She ( Ephriam ) like ANY Mom, drags Most of the Kids ( Ten Tribes ) with her when they split.

    She had No Right to Split and ASSUME the Primary Leadership Role over the Children that belonged to JUDA in THAT Particular regard. But Juda ( The Husband & Father ) should have been KINDER & not so Demanding on his Wife & Kids…Too many Tax Burdens…It’s ALWAYS about the MONEY isn’t it ?

    So she splits & becomes the typical self liberated wife of today not knowing what to do with a hand full of Undisiplined kids ( Tribes ). Eventually the Kids grow up & leave ( as did Ephriam’s children, the Ten LOST Tribes, when they made off for the Hills).

    After a long time, the Wife ( Ephriam ) comes to her senses and “COLLECTS HERSELF’. ( Begining of the Restoration & Gathering of Ephriam).

    All this Time, Juda has sort of COLLECTED his Thoughts as well ( Jews Gathering to Israel ).

    Now before the Husband will feel Right about getting back with a Wife who STOLE his children ( Ten Tribes ) from him, she is going to have to assume the Responsibility of REGATHERING her children and have something of Concrete Offering to appease the INJUSTICE she did to her Husband.

    Once the Kids are BACK & Mom has CORRECTED herself before them, THEN will be the time for EPHRIAM ( Wife & Mother ) to get BACK with JUDA ( Husband & Father ).

    And TOGETHER ( ALL OF THEM ) they Constitute the SAME FAMILY that intially broke up…And then… All Truly Will Be… WELL IN ZION…

    Sound Simple ?

  • I have long pondered the points that OWIW and Rob made in relation to the tribe of Ephraim and the tribe of Judah. At this point I still cannot accept the definition of ‘assist’ from OWIW nor can I accept to model of husband and wife relative to Ephraim and Judah (pending further light and knowledge).

    Here is my perspective. We understand from Genesis 48:19 that the seed of Ephraim will become a multitude of nations (Goyim) which could just as easily be translated as the ‘fulness of the Gentiles.’ I believe that these Ephraimic Gentiles are the same as those described in the Book of Mormon as Gentiles.

    “42 And the time cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all nations, both unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles; and after he has manifested himself unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles, then he shall manifest himself unto the Gentiles and also unto the Jews, and the last shall be first, and the first shall be last.”

    We all understand that Christ first presented Himself to the Jews and was rejected. The apostles were then instructed to take the gospel to the Gentiles. The restoration brought again the gospel to the Gentiles (of Ephraimic lineage) and their rejection as prophesied in 3 Nephi 16 will find the fulness of the gospel being given again to the Jews. It is only those Ephraimic Gentiles who repent and return who will participate in the building of New Jerusalem as described in 3 Nephi 21.

    I do not think that ‘assist’ as found in 3 Nephi 21:23-24 gives any indication that the Ephraimic Gentiles will have any higher position than the house of Israel. I do not believe that, after rejecting the gospel, the Ephraimic Gentiles will have any opportunity other than to repent and return and then to provide service to an equal, that being the remnant of Jacob and others of the house of Israel. At that point, they will ‘come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance.’

    There is no safety in being the children of Ephraim just as there is no protection in being the children of Abraham.

    “For behold, I say unto you that as many of the Gentiles as will repent are the covenant people of the Lord; and as many of the Jews as will not repent shall be cast off; for the Lord covenanteth with none save it be with them that repent and believe in his Son, who is the Holy One of Israel.”
    (2 Nephi 30:2)

    The family of God is only composed of those who repent and accept the gospel

    “Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
    Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;”

  • Rob:

    Spectator, I fully understand what you are saying, but I am NOT implying that the remnant of Ephriam is better than the House of Israel, which by the way, Ephriam is ALSO a tribe within that same house.

    What I am saying, is that all tribes play a particular role within the “Family” of God ( Israel ).

    Juda most certainly holds the right to Rule does he not ? Which fills the role of Father.

    Ephriam certainly has been given the Birthright has he not? Which fills the role of a mother in that relationship and has the INSTINCT to gather her chicks ( Ten Tribes ) back under her wings.

    In your understanding of things, it would give ALL the tribes of Israel the same role in the gathering process and that makes no sense at all.

    For there to BE a gathering, there must be something to gather TO…Ephriam.

    And the scriptures clearly state that they ( the Lost Tribes ) “COME” to Ephriam and recieve their needed Temple Blessings at the hands fo Ephriam.

    This is akin to having those children who were lost, to be SEALED to their parents Ephriam & Juda who are obvisously the two dominant tribes among the Family of Israel.

    And Ephriam needs to ASSIST her children in recieving Blessings they can not provide for themselves.

    Reversing that role an order is exactly the same as the screwed up mess the Lord predicted would be a part of the last days signs…Children would rule over their parents.

    It just won’t happen that way. It’s not the order of God in regard to the way a Family should be governed. Just look at what that backwark order has done for Family’s today?…Kids being able to conspire with Non Parents to over throw their parents. It puts the kids in charge and look what THAT has done for promoting the well being and stability of Families today.

    I don’t know why this would be such a hard thing for you to understand unless you feel the need to rule over your OWN parents.

    Things will turn out ok if we trust God and try to understand HIS reasoning as opposed to our own.

    I’m not blasting you, I’m empathizing with you. I have had to spend all my adult life trying to see things God’s way after having my youth thoroughly distorted by Satan and those being decieved by him including my parents.

    We ARE a Family of God. And no member is any less important than the other. But the children of that Family MUST be assisted by those with greater knowledge to lift them to that same level of understanding God & His Kingdom.

    The kids can not give the TRUE parents that knowledge they don’t pocess. But TOGETER as a Family, Mom & Dad can RAISE their children to that same Happy Level with the knowledge THEY pocess.

    My parents did not have the ability to RAISE me to a proper understanding of God’s Plan and order because they never pocesed it for themselves.

    Some parents WERE born under the covenant and had access to that knowledge but it may have been presented to them in a distorted way.

    Either one of those two senerios creates problems for their children to gain a proper understanding of the order of God and causes us to see life and order according to those distortions of truth.

    It doesn’t matter how you or I have FELT that a particular way of looking at things was correct. The ORDER OF GOD is the only order that will lead us to a True Understanding of Happiness according to God’s Plan for us.

    And YES. It is ALL centered on the Family as being the Model for that plan.

    And YES. Every design of God to get us to understand that Plan is based in the Relationships between the members of the Tribes of Israel…GOD’S Family.

    Each represent a particular member of that Family and the ROLES they play to make it a HAPPY & ORDERLY Family.

    So YES. Mom ( Ephriam ) MUST “assist’ her children ( Lost Tribes ) because she truly LOVES them and she & her Husband ( Juda ) have made mistakes in their marrige that MOST couples make and will some day long to RENEW & REGATHER what they once had.

    It’s so hard to comprehend this simple concept when things haven’t gone quite right in a Family like my own.

    But I have found greater understanding & happiness by stuggling to see things GOD’S WAY, as opposed to the way I developed my own perceptions by what I was subjected to while growing up.

    It’s a very tough road to hoe but a road worth hoeing. I still don’t have all the answers to life and the way a Family SHOULD & COULD be, but I’m getting closer to that understanding as time moves on.

    I’ve gained more than my parents had and I have learned that as being a parent myself now, that I have a lot to be GREATFUL for what my parents WHERE able to give me.

    God understands better than we do as their children, that there are REASONS we fall short of perfection in this life, and from God’s perspective, I can imagine Him being Very Empathetic to this condition having been through this stuff Himself and is there to haelp us over humps in this life that seem so insurmountable form our own perspective.

    It’s only been my projecting myself into God’s shoes by studying HIS Order and Doctrine, that I have been able to rid myself of the many distortions of His truth that had become MY perception of the way things are.

    It’s a BEAR doing that. Especially if our parents had to deal with those same distortions of truth and present them to us as NORMAL.

    I’ve had to make GOD & Jesus my new Family and just hope & pray the rest of my Family will gain what I have found through sujecting MY strong will to the will of GOD.

    I have fought Him every step of the way but for some reason, He keeps hanging in there with me as I know He does for A LOT of us who need His help in understanding the Proper Order & Roles of Family…His Family Israel.

  • Rob:

    Spektator, this perception you describe reminds me of my own perceptions of having once spoken with OWIW and reading many of his wrtings which I thoroughly enjoy.

    You paint a picture of someone in your head based upon what you can percieve of them in the things they write and in a voice you hear, but when actually coming to SEE their image, you can be totally thrown off.

    I’m not speaking of invisioning someone looking better or worse than a person could imagine of a person they had never seen, but rather just looking totally Different than what was imagined.

    I finally saw a GROWN UP picture of OWIW on some site on the internet which contained a picture of him & his wife and another couple standing near a cave or something.

    I can’t really remember the suroundings in the picture very well or the context of it’s being there. All I remember, is that he looked TOTALLY DIFFERENT than what I had drawn a picture of in my mind.

    This same principle of not being able to recognize the FULL picture of God’s Plan untill we SEE it for ourselves, is indicative of this phenomina.

    Some people CAN draw a close picture of what a person looks like in their mind by what they HEAR of them. My wife is one of those people who can do that…I’m not.

    But when I finally DO see it, then it makes perfect sense to me.

    OWIW is one of those rare people whom I’ve never met whom I have a great liking for in the CONTENT of his charater & knowledge that he projects in the things he writes. As well as the things that a LOT of you guys write & share.

    We all seem to vary on certain aspects of the Gospel yet share an overall desire to know all the truth we can find. That’s a RARE comodity among most other sites I have studied who have preformed ideas set in stone that have no room for change.

    I know that OWIW, Yourself and others, as well as myself, have formulated certain paradigmns of belief concerning our efforts to understand the Gospel Truth.

    And the one thing I feel certain of, is that no matter which of us turns out to be correct, the others will accept the truth when we SEE it.

    I feel a great sense of the Good Spirit of Truth among those who write and comment on several of these sites. I imagine that just like I am unable to gain a correct picture of the “IMGAE” of OWIW in my head, I DO FEEL I captured his GOOD ESSENSE.

    I think most of us on these few sites understand the ESSENCE of truth but most of us including me for sure, are probably going to be as suprised as I was when seeing a grown up picture of OWIW for the first time, in regard to comparing that to what the eventual Truth will bear to us that we speculate on…based in truth as we descern it.

    But now that I’ve SEEN a picture of him, it makes perfect sense to me and fits him to the tee.

    I’m sure our misperceptions of things we BELIVE to be true, in “ESSENSE”, IS TRUE. But our SEEING it for the first time, frist hand, when the Lord’s Sevant arives to DEFINE what that “IMAGE” of truth is, may very well SUPRISE a lot of us.

    It’s like you say…( “Pending Further Light & Knowledge” )…

  • Rob:

    Anarchy, the leadership roles you proscribe to each of the tribes is a GIVEN according to scripture. But individule leadership positions given to each tribe must be understood in the context of the collective whole.

    Each squad section of a football team has IT’S leadership role to play but there is ALWAYS a Quarter Back who is given the responsibilty to coordinate and guide their COLLECTIVE efforts.

    It is impossible to achieve collective sucess in ANY venture without the presence of a colessing influence to meld the pot of effort dirrected toward a single goal.

    Anarchy in it’s proper definition is just THAT…No Leadership to guide the common cause of many.

    Remeber the moto the illumined minds of the World’s new age order… is “Order OUT of Chaos”. As a conterfit to God’s Order AFTER the chaos has passed.

    No Big Leader to Lead the Lesser Leaders is to create ANARCHY & CHAOS.

    Freedom & Eqality ONLY exist according to the CAPACITY to understand God’s Government of Order.

    All tribes are NOT equal in intelligence of God. IE…There are many stars, and one star differeth from another in intellegence and Glory. And one star standeth above another until you come nigh unto Kolob ( Understanding Christ in His FULLNESS ).

    Therefore, those who pocess Greater Knowledge, must be placed in charge of dispensing that knowledge to those who need it…Hence ONE MAIN LEADER among other Leaders belonging to a particular realm of understanding the FULLNESS of God’s Government.

    Without a Quarter Back, there would be absolutely no point in trying to play the game against those on the opposing team who ARE organized under a soon to be revealed Leader who’s goal is to promote ANARCHY & CHAOS.

    So you really ought to give this Anarchy thing some real thought.

    Utimate EQUALITY only comes AFTER evryone has been ELEVATED to the SAME level of knowledge.

    And if you think we ALL have the SAME level of knowledge at this point in time and are ready to give EQUAL SHARES TO ALL, then you are in the same boat with the Anarchists of the World right now who are trying to force that SAME concept of equality upon us all.

    You have a lot of knowledge but the concept of Anarchy is not of God.

  • Rob:

    Anarchist, I just had a flash at understanding where you are coming from that I haven’t been able to figure out ever since I started reading your stuff.

    Each tribe DOES have something to offer the collective whole. Just as the children of two parents are the sum total of their parents and the Family wouldn’t be a Family without them. Yet it is parents who still preside until ALL come to the WHOLE KNOWLEDGE of the parents.

    THEN & ONLY THEN, after ALL have reached the level of the two parents Ephriam & Juda in their COLLECTIVE understanding of God, can it even be POSSIBLE for the Lost Tribes to ascend to that COMPLETE level of understanding God.

    And untill Ephriam & Juda are reunited at the coming of Christ, then how would we be able to function as a tribal council without a presiding Leader?

    And until Juda is reunited with Ephriam, then it is up to Ephriam to go it alone as the tribe who the Lost Tribes COME TO for the Higher Blessings that were bestowed upon Ephriam.

    So in that repsect, they are NOT equal enough to function as the council you mentioned until AFTER Christ has returned and THEN that would most likely be the case you describe because the Children would have matured to spiritual adults when Juda and Ephriam ( Husband & Wife ) are reunited in their individual understanding of God ( Heavenly Father & Mother ).

    Right now, the Vital Knowledge of God that Both Ephriam & Juda seperately pocess, must be COMBINED to form the EXAMPLE & KNOWLEDGE of that “MARRIGE” that the Children ( The Lost Tribes ) must come to see and understand the Nature of GOD HOOD.

    Until that time arrives, AFTER Christ has presented Himself to Juda and after being prepared by the two wittnesses, THEN your Formula seems correct.

    You are seeing farther in the future than what will occur BEFORE that happens.

    You are a real visionary to recognize that Ultimate outcome but there is a space to travel before reaching that level of COOPERATIVE understanding among ALL the 12 tribes.

    They must GROW to that level of spiritual maturity under the leadership of those appointed above them holding the Keys to the Birth Right & King ship owned by Ephriam & Juda.

    Elsewise why would God have placed those certain rights & responsibilities on the two chief tribes to begin with.

    And Juda & Ephriam WERE apoointed those positions among the tribes.

    Until the Plan of Salvation reaches it’s completion with the return of Christ bringing Juda & Ephriam back together as HIM being the Head of ALL, then there will always be a need for “A” leader to bring us to the understanding of that concept.

    And if you look closely at the scriptures in Zecharia chapter six at the end of the chapter you can SEE that Christ is not ALONE in His rule over the Terestrial Kingdom and NEVER WAS alone in inacting the Plan of Salvation.

    He has ALWAYS had a PARTNER and the BOTH of them recieved their directions from the Father.

    They have been seperated for the most part during the course of the past 6 thousand years carrying out their respective roles in this plan but ALWAYS working together under the direction of the Father, but NEITHER on their own.

    This other person being refered to in Zecharia can ONLY BE the Holy Spirit once he has ALREADY assumed a Body of Flesh of his own.

    Now if A needs to proceed B, then the Spirit better hurry up and get here in the Flesh before Christ returns.

    You think maybe it is HE who prepares the way for His Brother as the Lord’s Servant ?

    Who else COULD or WOULD it be ?…

    So there will always be the need for TWO LEADERS to stand at the helm untill Kingdoms are Finalized…Including the Celestial Kingdom. Else wise why are there 3 divisions within THAT kingdom is ALL are equal when we get there.

    Tribal council as you define it is the ULTIMATE GOAL of getting the Celestial Candidates for God Hood ALL THE WAY to that level and THEN equality exists among the GODS they now keep company with.

    Prior to that there will always be the need for two leaders to show the way to that ultimate goal.

    Another scripture in Abraham illustrates that point…

    There are many stars and one star differeth in glory and intellegence from another star. And one star standeth above the rest until you come nigh unto Kolb ( Understanding Christ ). But is Christ ALONE or does he stand in concert with ANOTHER STAR to hold the Key of Power equal to but DIFFERENT in it ROLE ?

    Check out the relationsip of Oliblish to Kolob in Facimilie #3. Does that not describe the Holy Spirit in His Role.

    To determine their EQUALNESS, check out figure four in that facimile and combine it with the information in the first three firgures described.

    You get a picture of the God Head. And come to realize that Salvation was NOT just wrought by One Man but rather TWO playing two disticntly different, yet very similar roles.

    So YES. There is a need for TWO to lead the way to ULTIMATE SPIRITUAL MATURITY that you have described in giving EQUAL PORTION to all 12 tribes. And that will not come to pass for quite some time.

    Your vision is like that of peering through a very high powered telescope focused on deep space and unable to see nearer objects.

    You HAVE the right picture, only it’s the FINAL PICTURE and we ain’t qite there yet.

  • ElderChantdown:

    Sad how much of that gentile pride is manifested in the obsession over being leader. I guess even when we try to bend the scriptures to support our ego they only testify all the louder of our sins.

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