The scriptures are replete with examples of apostates and dissidents, people who seek to correct or destroy the religious establishment. They, in some instances, are striving to establish their own ‘brand’ of worship. Some have taken a particular aspect of religious observance and attempted to build salvation using that as the nucleus. Others have sensed the error that had become enmeshed in the orthodox church and set off to correct the path. Throughout the scriptures there are examples of the ‘good’ reformers and the ‘bad’ actors. This paper will review examples of those who would be labeled as apostates or dissenters and glean the characteristics of both the individual and corporate apostasy. Along the way we will also analyze the response to dissidents by the organization and assess the current approach to discipline.

Nehor the Apostate

Alma the younger, during his first year in the combined role of both the civic and religious leader encountered a heretofore unknown situation; a man came among the people who preached what he called the ‘word of God’ and sought to undermine the church that was established by his father, Alma. This challenge to authority came in the person of a man of commanding appearance, Nehor the apostate. Nehor sought to establish a new regime; one that created a challenge to the incumbent church with an alternative view on the premise of salvation.

Nehor is the only person in the index of the LDS Scriptures to be branded an apostate, quite a feat for a character that is introduced and executed in a short fourteen verses.

According to the narrative in Alma, chapter one, Nehor taught these precepts:

  • The leadership of the church
    • should be popular
    • ought not labor with their hands
    • ought to be supported by the people
  • The doctrine of the churchofNehor was
    • All mankind would be saved at the last day
    • Rejoice for the Lord created all men and redeemed all men
    • All men would receive eternal life

Alma notes, in the description of the event, that ‘this is the first time that priestcraft has been introduced among the people’ (Alma 1:12). Nephi, in speaking of the pride of the gentile, defined the concept; ‘priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion’ (2 Nephi 26:29). As an aside, the phrase, ‘follow the brethren’ suggests they have set themselves up as a ‘light unto the world.’

Nehor was able to gather a following who provided support and funding sufficient for his pride and costly apparel but made the mistake of contending against Gideon with the sword rather than the word and was put to death. Those that continued to promote priestcraft carried on as described the Book of Alma:

Nevertheless, this did not put an end to the spreading of priestcraft through the land; for there were many who loved the vain things of the world, and they went forth preaching false doctrines; and this they did for the sake of riches and honor.

Nevertheless, they durst not lie, if it were known, for fear of the law, for liars were punished; therefore they pretended to preach according to their belief; and now the law could have no power on any man for his belief (Alma 1:16-17).

In light of the current spate of excommunications and threats of church discipline, it is interesting to note that the church leadership under Alma allowed these dissenters to not only espouse beliefs that were contrary to the church position but to also ‘preach according to their belief’ without repercussions.

As described in the narrative, the church forbid persecution, ‘…there was a strict law among the people of the church, that there should not any man, belonging to the church, arise and persecute those that did not belong to the church, and that there should be not persecution among themselves’ (verse 21). Persecution, in this context, included both physical and verbal abuse, ‘they did persecute them and afflict them with all manner of words’ (verse 20). There were doctrinal and organizational differences between the church of God and the order of Nehor. Nevertheless, the direction from the church was that there should be no persecution, with words or otherwise, of those who promoted alternative ideas.

Alma the Elder

Alma’s father, once part of the council of high priests under Noah, is also another notable apostate. When Noah became king, he ‘released’ the priests that his father Zeniff had installed and consecrated his own men in their place including Alma. Abinadi was called by the Lord to preach repentance in the kingdom of Noah and was cast into prison.  After hearing the words spoken by the prophet sent to warn the people, Alma sought to influence Noah and his fellow priests but his efforts were viewed as a threat. His decision to side with Abinadi, an apostate, who preached against the leadership at the time made him an outcast and he was forced to flee.

If you look at the situation from the perspective of King Noah and his court, I would suggest that Alma was guilty of the following actions representing apostasy:

  • Misappropriation of church property – high priest garb
  • Continued to follow the teachings of apostate sects (Abinadi) after being corrected by his higher authority.
  • Formally joined another church and advocated its teachings.

The last two offenses would be considered apostasy in today’s church. As a good ‘apostate,’ Alma can be a template for consideration.

A number of years later, Alma the elder also had to deal with dissenters from the church of God. As he was reunited with the main clan of Nephites, ‘king Mosiah granted unto Alma to establish churches throughout the land of Zarahemla’ (Mosiah 25:19) with Alma as the high priest over the church. The church included many who participated in the great outpouring of the Spirit which attended the address by King Benjamin described in Mosiah, chapters 2-5.

The older generation of the people of king Benjamin who had experienced the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost were taught to retain a remission of their sins by maintaining their faith in God, by humility and prayer; they covenanted with God and had become the ‘children of Christ’ through covenant (Mosiah 5:7). They believed in God and had been purified because of their faith in Jesus Christ who was to come (Mosiah 4:2).

Some of their children who were born within the embrace of the church, however, ‘could not understand the words of king Benjamin’ (Mosiah 26:1) and  ‘did not believe what had been said concerning the resurrection of the dead, neither did the believe concerning the coming of Christ’ (verse 2). The narrative in this chapter goes on to say that their ‘hearts were hardened’ (verse 3), like those of the order of Nehor. This younger generation would not pray, would not be baptized nor would they join the church. As in the case of Nehor, the presence of the non-believers induced contention and, through flattery, caused members of the church to sin.  When the priests brought those that had sinned before Alma, he took the case to the Lord, and received the following answer:

“… Go; and whosoever transgresseth against me, him shall ye judge according to the sins which he has committed; and if he confess his sins before thee and me, and repenteth in the sincerity of his heart, him shall ye forgive, and I will forgive him also (Alma 26:29).

Alma proceeded according this direction ‘and those that would not confess their sins and repent of their iniquity, the same were not numbered among the people of the church, and their names were blotted out (verse 36). The people who would not follow Christ, who would not repent of their sins, who would not be baptized; they were the ones whose names were blotted out.

The environment of the church established by Alma is certainly different than what we experience today when one considered the blended role of the leadership in both the community and the church. These examples from scripture provide us with insight into how the modern church could, or perhaps, should deal with apostasy and dissent. The freedom to express alternate beliefs was supported by the church of God established by Alma. Those alternate beliefs could also be preached without censure. The members were given the opportunity to consider these alternatives and act according to their own conscience. Should we expect the same treatment today?

In a recent press release by the LDS Church, the topic of church discipline was addressed (  One of the reasons for church discipline was ‘to protect the innocent’ from apostasy. This suggests that the current church has assumed the responsibility to protect the members from variant ideas. This approach is at odds with the concept of personal revelation.  The missionary effort of the church relies heavily on the confirmation that can be received by and through the Holy Ghost.

I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. (Moroni 10:4-5)

Investigators are encouraged to ask God about the truth of the things that are presented to them. The promise is that the truth will be manifest by the power of the Holy Ghost. Should this same technique be applied by members who are confronted with what the church may consider to be apostate doctrine? Teaching the members to rely on this same promise allows the individual to seek and receive confirmation about any ‘truth’ that is being promoted and stands as a better alternative than the effort to ‘protect the innocent.’

Modern Apostasy

Let us now look at how apostasy is defined today. The LDS church website, ( under the tag line ‘Gospel Topics,’ contains this description of apostasy:

When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy.

The idea here, as collaborated in the scriptures, is that apostasy is the mindful departure from the gospel. The Nehors and those who rejected the church in the time of Alma were cited for their dissent from the gospel.

In contrast to the gospel as the barometer of adherence, the Church Handbook of Instruction (CHI), Handbook 1, page 57 contains the following definition of apostasy:

  • Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders.
  • Persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
  • Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects (such as those that advocate plural marriage) after being corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
  • Formally join another church and advocate its teaching

As one can see from the CHI, the use of the boundaries of the gospel in the determination of dissent has been supplanted with adherence to and alignment with the church, church doctrine, and its leadership. There appears to be one definition of apostasy for public consumption and another private directive to church leadership. The use of the term Church doctrine and opposition to church leaders does not necessarily align with the gospel, a term that will be explored shortly.

Of note is the reference to apostate sects that advocate plural marriage; a doctrine that at one time in the church was viewed as a requirement for the highest degree of heaven.  Reliance on ‘church doctrine’ to determine dissent creates confusion when those doctrines, such as plural marriage or the issue of blacks and the priesthood, change over time.  Consideration should also be given to the definition of the doctrine of Christ found in 2nd Nephi, chapters 31 and 32 and 3rd Nephi, chapter 11.

If the definition of the gospel is immutable, then the definition of apostasy or dissent is also unchanging. Membership in the church is determined by obedience to the gospel, by the same logic, church discipline should be governed by the same precepts.

The Lord’s Criteria for His Church

Let’s turn our attention now to the use of the term apostasy as it applies to organizations. As cited earlier, when individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy. The Lord, in defining the criteria by which a church can be considered His can be found in the 27th chapter of 3 Nephi.

The disciples chosen by Christ, as He labored among the Nephites, were sent out to teach and baptize for the purpose of re-establishing the church of Christ. After some period of time, these men then met together and were ‘united in mighty prayer and fasting’ (3 Nephi 27:1), when the Lord appeared in their midst. Their request was to know by what name the church should be called. The Lord proceeded to lay out the criteria for the organization to be considered His Church. The key points of the discussion are:

  • ‘if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel’ (3 Nephi 27:8)
  • ‘If it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it’ (verse 10)

To be His church, the organization must be called by His name, be built upon His gospel and demonstrate the works of God. As stated earlier, the gospel is the basis for both individual and corporate acceptance by the Lord. The scriptures reaffirm that linkage. The following is an analysis of how well these items can be applied to the restored church today.

The Name of the Church

The current formal name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This seems to fit the requirement although this is only the trademark. The legal name of the organization is The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints; the holder of the copyright of my triple combination. Buildings and facilities typically show ownership as the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop or other entities. Does this meet the Lords requirement? I will leave that answer up to the reader.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ

An important issue is the specific definition of the gospel. Many, today, use the term very broadly to include the tenets and practices of the church; the term ‘living the gospel’ means adhering to the life style of a believing, practicing Mormon, including attending the weekly meetings, paying tithing, fulfilling callings, temple work for the dead, etc.  Let’s examine the scriptural definition of the gospel.

Following the elaboration of the criteria for His church, the Lord proceeded to define His gospel in chapter 27 of 3rd Nephi. While I will not recite the entire text, I would encourage the reader to prayerfully consider the full text of the Savior’s definition of His gospel. Let me summarize.

The Lord came into the world to do the will of his Father, to be lifted up upon the cross that he may draw all men unto him. All men will be judged of their works. Whosoever repents, is baptized, and endures to the end will be found guiltless at the judgment. No unclean thing can enter the kingdom of God; therefore we must have our garments washed in His blood. Let me now quote from the last verses of 3 Nephi, chapter 27 where the Lord completes His description of the gospel:

Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do; (verses 20-21)

That is the sum of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It contains the information we need to gain salvation and prepare ourselves to enter His kingdom clean from our sins. Those who call themselves Saints need to be sanctified through the application of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

In addition to this treatment of the gospel of Jesus Christ in chapter 27 of 3 Nephi, there are other places in the scriptures of the restoration where the Lord states: “This is My Gospel.” Let me include two additional recitations from the scriptures where the Lord defines His gospel:

Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.

Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved; (D&C 33:11-12)

And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom. (D&C 39:6)

The baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, as an event, is the mechanism by which we receive a remission of our sins.”For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. And then are ye on the strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life.” (2 Nephi 31:17-18) Rarely discussed in the correlated church, these latter two scripture references emphasize a critical yet marginalized component of the gospel. If the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost is the mechanism by which we are sanctified, the obfuscation of the principle could be considered a rejection of the gospel. If the gospel presented is not the gospel that Christ defined in during His appearance among the Nephites nor is it the gospel defined in these two references from the Doctrine and Covenants, then what Gospel is it?

Works of God, Works of men

As noted above, the third requirement of the church of Jesus Christ is to demonstrate the ‘works of the Father’ in the church. These works are contrasted in the next verse with the works of men:

‘But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return’ (3 Nephi 27:11).

The works of God are referenced at the end of the discussion of the gospel when Christ stated ‘for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye do also’ (verse 21). As documented in the earlier chapter, while Christ was among the Nephites, these activities were recorded:

And it came to pass that after he had ascended into heaven—the second time that he showed himself unto them, and had gone unto the Father, after having healed all their sick, and their lame, and opened the eyes of their blind and unstopped the ears of the deaf, and even had done all manner of cures among them, and raised a man from the dead, and had shown forth his power unto them, and had ascended unto the Father— (3 Nephi 26:15)

As was noted earlier, Christ’s appearance, where these criteria were discussed, was to the twelve disciples, not an engagement with the broader church. In this directive to the twelve, they were to demonstrate the works of the Father, just as Christ had done while He was among them. The scriptures attest that the disciples of Christ did indeed fulfill this charge.

And there were great and marvelous works wrought by the disciples of Jesus, insomuch that they did heal the sick, and raise the dead, and cause the lame to walk, and the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear; and all manner of miracles did they work among the children of men; and in nothing did they work miracles save it were in the name of Jesus. (4 Nephi 1:5)

Are these works of God demonstrated by those who lead this church today? Consider this warning:

And who shall say that Jesus Christ did not do many mighty miracles?  And there were many mighty miracles wrought by the hands of the apostles.

And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being?  And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles.

And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust (Mormon 9:18-20)

As noted in all these verses, the miracles, the healings, the raising of the dead are to be demonstrated by the twelve, those who have been called to lead His church. These miracles stand in stark contrast to the works of men, the buildings, the books, the banks, the malls, and the rest of the activities than can be done by the hands of men. The lack of these miracles demonstrated by those who are called to lead the church along with the emphasis of the works of men, indicates that the church does not meet the Lords criteria.

In fact, can any organization which purports to be the church of Jesus Christ measure up to the criteria established by Him? Or… are they all apostates?

Rejecting the Gospel

Another element critical to the understanding of the message of the restoration is the identification of who is the intended recipient of the warnings in the latter-day scriptures. On the title page of the Book of Mormon, we find more about the intention of the book.

Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.

As is noted here, the book was written to

  • the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel
  • Jew
  • Gentile

For most readers, it is safe to assume they would be designated as ‘gentiles’ in the context of the Book of Mormon. Also noted on the title page is reference to the book which is ‘to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile.’ The book did indeed come to the gentiles.

And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches through the fulness of the Gentiles, is, that in the latter days,   when our seed shall have dwindled in unbelief, yea, for the space of many years, and many generations after the Messiah shall be manifested in body unto the children of men, then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed…(1 Nephi 15:13)

This passage clearly states that the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ will be given to the gentiles and from the gentiles to the remnant. Throughout the Book of Mormon, the message to the gentiles is the one to which we should pay attention.  But, this manifestation of the fulness of the gospel to the gentiles is not the last, as shown in this reference; the gospel is then to be extended to the Jews, or house of Israel.

And the time cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all nations, both unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles; and after he has manifested himself unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles, then he shall manifest himself unto the Gentiles and also unto the Jews, and the last shall be first, and the first shall be last. (1 Nephi 13:42)

Christ first showed himself to the Jews at the meridian of time. When He was rejected by the Jews, the gospel was extended to the Gentiles.

Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (Acts 13:46-48)

The second time that the Lord was manifest to the gentiles came forth with the restoration of the gospel through Joseph Smith. In 1830, the Book of Mormon was published and sent to the world; a book that contains the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ (D&C 20:9).

As the scriptures indicate above, the Lord has established a sequence of events leading up to His return in glory. The gentiles now are given the opportunity to individually and collectively embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ. The first time around, the Jews counted themselves unworthy of the gospel message. The outcome of this opportunity is prophesied in the latter-day scriptures.

In the parable of the wicked husbandman found in Matthew, chapter 21 of the New Testament, Christ warned the Pharisees that they were to lose the kingdom of God. In the Joseph Smith translation of Matthew, additional information was presented regarding the gentiles ‘opportunity.’ Here is the text found in the Joseph Smith Translation of the New Testament:

And now his disciples came to him, and Jesus said unto them, Marvel ye at the words of the parable which I spake unto them?

Verily, I say unto you, I am the stone, and those wicked ones reject me.

I am the head of the corner. These Jews shall fall upon me, and shall be broken.

And the kingdom of God shall be taken from them, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof; (meaning the Gentiles.)

Wherefore, on whomsoever this stone shall fall, it shall grind him to powder.

And when the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, he will destroy those miserable, wicked men, and will let again his vineyard unto other husbandmen, even in the last days, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

And then understood they the parable which he spake unto them, that the Gentiles should be destroyed also, when the Lord should descend out of heaven to reign in his vineyard, which is the earth and the inhabitants thereof (JST Matthew 21:50-56)

The warning to the gentiles is that the same rock upon which the Jews were broken, would grind them to powder. That rock is Jesus Christ. Who are the husbandmen in these last days that were tasked with keeping the vineyard? These will find a worse fate than that delivered to the scribes and Pharisees in the meridian of time.

In the sixteenth chapter of Third Nephi, the Lord speaks of the gentiles and their opportunity to accept the gospel.

And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.

Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them (3 Nephi 16:6-7)

In the next verse, the believing gentiles are contrasted to the unbelieving gentiles who are to scatter and plague the house of Israel.

But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles—for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them; (verse 8)

In these verses, the believing and the unbelieving of the gentiles are represented. The believing having received a testimony through the Holy Ghost and the unbelieving scattering the people God calls His.

And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them (3 Nephi 16:10)

The gentiles, of the same group that received a witness of the Holy Ghost, are now prophesied to sin against the gospel of Jesus Christ and reject the same. They stand accused of a variety of sins and transgressions, including pride and priestcrafts, and face the loss of the fulness of the gospel.

 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.

And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel (verses 11-12)

Here we find, again, that the fulness of the gospel is rejected by the gentiles and extended to the house of Israel as a future event. This scripture speaks of the gentiles collectively and, as shown above, includes the LDS Church as represented by the faithful believers that were given the truth.

Again, in the next verse, we see the Lord reaching out to the Gentiles:

But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel (verse 13)

We, individually and collectively, have the opportunity to repent and return to God. How does one return to a place that they have never been? This implies that we once embraced the gospel but then rejected it. God is asking us to return. Several times during his tenure as a church leader, President Ezra Taft Benson warned us that the condemnation found in section 84, verses 54 through 57, of the Doctrine and Covenants still applies to us today. Should a people who are under condemnation expect that this liability will simply fade away? Has this condemnation ever been lifted? I believe the correct answer is no. There are  other scripture references that would lend concern about the current status of the church. Is ‘all well in Zion?’

So there it is… We, gentiles, are all called to embrace the fulness of the gospel – to repent and be baptized, to receive a remission of our sins through the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, to be sanctified and made holy. By so doing, we can assist in the establishment of Zion, the pure in heart and prepare for the return of our Lord and Savior. Such is the message of the gospel.

In summary, apostasy can come in many flavors, but only one definition fits with the scriptures, that of rejecting the gospel. The scriptures give us clear examples of both ‘good’ and ‘bad’ apostates from an individual and corporate perspective and provides guidance regarding how the church should respond to those who hold and publicly express alternative viewpoints. That response should respect the rights of individuals to speak according to their beliefs without persecution.

The scriptures also address the possibility and inevitability of corporate apostasy in the last days. If the church cannot meet the requirements laid out by the Lord to be called the ‘church of Christ,’ then it is not His church.

Let me close by reciting from the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 18:

“…for if Zion will not purity herself, so as to be approved in all things, in His sight, He will seek another people, for His work will go on until Israel be gathered, and they who will not hear His voice, must expect to feel His wrath.

23 Responses to “The Latter Day Apostasy – A Scriptural Perspective presented at the 2014 Sunstone Symposium”

  • You are right that Alma could be seen as apostate from the corrupt church of King Noah. That’s why it is so critical to have a testimony for ourselves that those currently leading the church are inspired. Everything else follows if we gain a witness of that. As for the church name, and additional doctrines you mention, they were literally revealed by god through his chosen prophet. As such, if I have a witness of the inspired calling of Joseph I also can know the teachings come from God.

    • Spektator:

      I would only caution that we should receive a confirmation from the Spirit even for those things that came to us through Joseph Smith, as in ‘prove all things, hold fast to that which is good.’


      • Lilli:

        We don’t received ‘confirmations’ about things and people ‘from the Spirit’, for we can be too easily deceived by false revelation. Christ said we prove all things by ‘facts’ by comparing what people do and say to what He taught, to see if they keep his commandments or not, or if what they preach is the same as Christ taught, if not, then we know for sure they are wrong. We don’t need the Spirit to discern devils from saints, we just need to understand Christ’s teachings and judge by them.

        False prophet usually teach people to pray for confirmations from the ‘Spirit’ for they know that most people will attribute any good feelings or spiritual experiences they receive as ‘from God’, not realizing that the Adversary gives us just as much if not far more revelation and good confirmations as the Holy Spirit can.

        Even when the Holy Spirit teaches us truth God expects us to prove it 1st and not just automatically think our revelation is right and from God, He expects us to compare it to what Christ said to know if it’s true or not. That is how we discern the truth of all things, whether our revelations or anyone else’s, or whether prophets are true or false.

    • It is not only Alma that is an example, and we must be careful in making the false assumption that because an organization started off well that its leaders will continue to be inspired. (It is also worth noting that “inspired” is a lot lower a bar than “Prophet, Seer, and Revealator” I have heard “inspired sermons from Billy Graham, MLK, Ghandi, president Obama, and others, but that doesn’t make them prophets of God, or priesthood holders. )

      For other examples of Good apostates I would like to point to the greatest example of all: Jesus Christ, who was brought in for church discipline, spat upon and crucified. All those who persisted in preaching the doctrines of his “apostate sect” were also excommunicated. (See Acts Chapter 4) The church leaders who did these things were a legitimate institutional continuation of the Lord’s church, they had simply fallen into apostasy. Jesus himself even “sustained” these church leaders as such in Matt. 23:2-3. There are also a multitude of Old Testament examples. many if not most of the prophets who wrote the old testament were viewed by the church leaders of their time as wicked apostates. Think of Jeremiah, Elijah, and Isaiah. Lehi is also a great example Lehi was a true prophet, but the people sustained Laban and the “Brethren of the Church” instead. (1 Ne. 4:26) Can we not “Follow the Brethren” just as blindly if we are not careful?

      I bring these examples up because one should not assume that their spiritual witness that Joseph Smith was a prophet has any correlation with whether or not the church today has a prophet and it appears you are drawing this false correlation. It is by their fruits ye shall know them, not by another’s fruits ye shall know them. If the church today is led by a prophet then it is the by the fruits of revelations revealed though that prophet that they are known. If you have evidence that these problems in the church are the result of revelation from God, then I will obey that revelation and get in line, but if the Lord himself has not revealed the “handbook” then why should we act like he has?

      I have also addressed some of these issues on my own blog, click on my name to check it out.

      • Lilli:

        Yes, but we should also not just believe our ‘confirmations about Joseph’ are true either, for we prove Joseph was a true prophet or not, not by the Spirit, but by whether Joseph preached and practiced Christ’s commandments or not.

        Everyone, even prophets, are easily deceived by the Adversary’s false confirmations and false revelations they think are coming from God, so that is not the way to ‘prove all things’, but we prove whether Joseph or anyone, past or present, is a true prophet or not by following Christ’s method of ‘whether they preach and keep Christ’s commandments and have true Charity’ or not.

        Unfortunately, even though Joseph Smith taught many good and wonderful things, as all false prophets do, he did not keep or preach Christ’s commandments, nor did he prove to have Charity, nor has any leader of the LDS church past or present.

        So one who understands and keeps Christ’s commandments and has charity, would not think Joseph was a true prophet of God or had any authorization to restore Christ’s Church, which didn’t even need restoring anyway, for Christ’s doctrines and authority have never been lost, they have just been rejected by most everyone, but His teachings and authority have been on earth since Christ’s day, for all to study and acquire if they are righteous.

        Even the Book of Mormon teaches against Christ’s doctrines, so a true follower of Christ would not consider it of God, even though it teaches many true things in it also, but so do all books do written by man, part truth part error. But Christ’s teachings and things from God are perfect.

  • sfort:


    You hit a home run. Complete with scriptural presence and logic. Thanksfor the wrte-up.

  • JR:

    Great presentation! I was very sorry to miss you at Sunstone. My nephew was baptized that morning so I missed you. As a corollary to your thoughts presented here, most of our LDS brethren and sisters believe they are already a part of the House of Israel via their Patriarchal Blessing wh. enumerates them as being of the tribe of Ephraim; and so do not identify themselves with the Gentiles in the Book of Mormon. You have done a good job of pointing out that distinction here. In addition to what you have written, I would add that in 3 Nephi 21:5-6, the Lord mentions that it will be “the gentiles”, or more correctly the Gentiles who “will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine” who will be “numbered among my people, O house of Israel”. So the Lord set requirements on “the Gentiles” who will bring the truth to the remnant in the last days. They will not harden their hearts, they will repent, they will come unto Christ, they will be baptized in His name, and they will know of the true points of His doctrine. What does it mean to truly repent? What does it mean to come unto Christ? What does it mean to know of the true points of His doctrine? THESE are the Gentiles who will be numbered (adopted) among the house of Israel, not a thundering herd of 3 million Temple Recommend holding Latter-days Saints (to paraphrase Denver Snuffer). Very good article. Thank you.
    Sorry to have missed you at Sunstone my brother!

  • It’s a curious thing this apostasy of the Church. In talking about it with others, I have resorted to including all members instead of pointing out any of the leadership to avoid waggling fingers as much as possible, but waggle they do. Besides, I think the slippage into apostasy is a multi-generational slippage that started when the Church was organized. The fancy word for slippage is entropy which is a scientific term for measuring chaos and decay. All the matter (and all of ever aspect of this Telestial world) of which we are aware scientifically is subject to entropy which is in accordance with eternal law. To be otherwise is negentropy or a state of maintaining a perpetual paradise. Paradise and negentropy are both impossible right now. Joseph Smith was under the same law as we are subject. So are our current day leaders and so are we. Restoration is thus necessary and this article has helped me to understand the regeneration I need to work toward in order to be saved. I loved it. Keep up the good work.

    • Spektator:

      As I read the scriptures, there is both condemnation of the whole church as well as chastisement of the leadership. I don’t think anyone has ‘clear sailing.’ It will not be just the leadership that loses the fullness of the gospel, it will be all those who do not ‘return and repent.’

  • George:

    1 Nephi 21:1 corresponds with Isaiah 49:1, but contains more than the modern Bible, wherein the Lord’s prophesied servant addresses those of the house of Israel (which I’d contend includes all those who have made and kept covenants with the Lord) who “are broken off and are driven out because of the wickedness of the pastors of my people.” One obvious interpretation of that phrase is as a prophecy that Church leaders will exercise unrighteous dominion to excommunicate people for unjust reasons. The chapter goes on to describe how the servant will similarly face rejection before gaining honor, and that one day the Lord will hear those who are broken off, as well.

    • Spektator:

      Having lived through the experience of watching good people who are seeking the Lord cut off from the church, I agree with you and appreciate the reference.

  • Petra:

    Just FYI, the name of our church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints……small “d” on “day.”

  • Mace:

    I have heard many say that the baptism of fire and the holy ghost is a particular and discernible event however, there is also a distinction between those who are of the house of Israel and a gentile receiving that experience. Many here will point to the exact moment in time or an experience when this occurred in their lives. But consider the following, some of us do have the blood of Israel and my not know when this has occurred, but nevertheless should be able to see how it changes their lives.

    20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

    Just a thought! This may be why some never actually recognize that they have received this great gift. But the fruits should be seen with obvious clarity.

    Thanks for your article,


    • Spektator:

      I have made the point before in one of my posts that the interpretation of the verse you quoted is up for debate. The Packer version is that the BOF was not discernible as an event, as you describe. The alternative viewpoint, which I hold, is that the Lamanites did not understand what was happening to them, as described in Helaman, chapter 5. My 1973 edition has a footnote on 3 Nephi 9:20 pointing back to Helaman 5:45. Likewise, Helaman 5:45 has a footnote pointing to 3 Nephi 9:20.

      My 1981 edition of the scriptures have the backward reference removed from 3 Nephi, chapter 12, pointing to Helaman 5:45 but the forward footnote in Helaman 5:45 still points to 3 Nephi 9:20.

      I can only attest that there has been no greater experience in my mortality than the baptism of fire.

    • George:

      Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith says that the reception of the Holy Ghost by someone with no Abrahamic blood will include a process of adoption which works some physical change, and may well be more noticeable (either to the individual or to outside observers; I’m not clear which) than the same experience for someone who’s already in the House of Israel.

      Even if the baptism of fire is an occasionally unnoticeable experience, Lectures on Faith says we have a right to know our standing before God. I suspect that right includes knowing whether or not we’ve received the baptism of fire.

  • Chris Harrison:

    Nice. Things are becoming more and more defined.

  • Mace:

    I was just pointing out that it isn’t always the same, not to take away from the experience anyone has had. I hope I can experience the “knowing” in my life. I have at times absolutely know that I was under the influence of the Spirit, especially during times of testifying to those I was privileged to teach in Gospel Doctrine Class and as a stake missionary. No greater thrill has ever filled my soul.

  • rebecca:

    Well, I was called an apostate earlier today by someone in an online group that I frequent. Or used to frequent. To be honest it really shocked me that someone would say that to me after expressing a teaching of Christ. And this group was talking about a popular person as of late who had a vision and speculating all about it. Now that person may have really had a vision, but that doesnt make it doctrine. Somehow they took the higher moral ground and called me a lowly apostate and i am thinking that is just a little taste of what some others have had to go through recently. It seems like any differing thoughts at all are becoming quite dangerous in this church. Especially since Sunday’s conference FTP message was hit so hard. I still feel really awful, but I know that i am not an apostate, especially according to the scripture definition. Our church has serious problems and we need to repent and fix it while we can.

    • sfort:

      We feel bad when we are still connected to the precepts of men that we have followed so long. It feels strange to be “estranged”. Our belief system has driven us to and fro for many years. Leaving it will be a withdrawl. I think following the Book of Mormon and learning what Christ brought to the Nephites are a good beginning. Christ neither spoke about ordinances in the temple nor what kinds of priesthood was necessary. Humble followers of Christ brought the people of Jershon to the kingdom of our God.

  • […] process, I would prefer you read two very good posts on the matter, First is, “The Latter-Day Apostasy” and second, “The Doctrine Against Dissent.” These articles explore the matter […]

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